If there wasn't an issue.. why did LT once ban head hits?

And a side issue, the largest larp in europe which is known for more hardcore combat, including using shields as weapons and barging etc.. has put a complete ban on head hits, with threat of ejection from there event if you break the rule.

While its arguable that a safely pulled blow to the head is ok (And yes I will argue that it isn't for multiple reasons).. this is assuming that they are stationary. If they move in an unexpected way that safely pulled blow could all to easily become a smack in the head.

It is though mute, currently the rules stand that the head is a viable target.. but should by the safety rules be avoided.. ergo safety over rules, thus people should avoid them as much as possible. I'd just like to see ref's and marshal's calling people on this clear safety rule when its blatant :)

Your points about sabre fencing are relevant (I've been a sabreur for over 10 years myself) but there are a few things to bear in mind. Firstly, the weight of the weapon - LARP weapons can be far heavier than sabres, and are almost never as well-balanced. Although the speed of the weapon is less and impact area more, this is countered by the fact that the force of the blow can be much greater.

Scoring a point to disable the opponent - relies on a) you being fast enough to do so, b) you seeing the blow coming, and c) the person being able to arrest the blow in time after they have been disabled.

Parrying the blow - again this relies on awareness and speed (as does dodging), and if you're using sabre techniques leads to the added problem that the instimctual response to parrying an attack at head is to riposte across the face - and that's an escalation best avoided.

With regard to headgear (see moderators, I'm edging this back on-topic, although it might be best to give head shots a seperate thread in the General board) it isn't just the ruggedness of the fencing masks you have to consider, but also the fact that they offer full-face protection. At the Moot, I ended up in first aid after a spear strike at my head slipped down my face and scraped across my eye. The blow may have been properly pulled, but when it hits the wrong spot that's irrelevant.

Fencing techniques can be used to some effect in LARP - especially footwork - but with the best will in the world, you are going to get hit, and sometimes you will be hit too hard. Even if you are happy to take a few bruises, bear in mind that the next person your assailant fights might be more delicate, so it is always sensible to report anything you feel is unsafe.

On the flip-side, a useful training technique for those who want to control the strength of their blows is to practice 'double-tapping' hits - it gets you used to pulling the blow (just don't try and use it in combat).

You've just brought the conversation full circle, I'm afraid. People can wear such things for protection if they want to, but the rules state that if a caster is in anything greater than light armour (which useful head protection would be) then they can't cast their ranged spells.

As to your comments about fencing and so on - in an honour duel then perhaps very relevant, in mass combat, though, rather less so. Remember you're going to start off in a group of people facing your enemy, but the enemy will break through your lines, some people will fall and be picked up by healers, separating them from the original main group. This continues to the point where most people, at some point, will have the enemy both behind and in front of them. They may be entirely encircled, they may just have one guy who snuck through... Strategies that involve "not getting hit" are pretty much limited to cowering under a shield or running away. Fast footwork and similar other stuff might help you, but it won't help a lot. Even before the lines are broken, you are facing several opponents at once. You may find three people target you at once with their weapons - no parry will avoid all of that.

Hawkida, that's fair enough. I did mention that things may well be different when faced with a few people at once. Even then though wouldn't getting out of the way make sense? I find it hard to believe you can achieve much standing facing 3 opponents, helmet or not?

Eddie.

Depends on your and their skills (both IC stats and OOC ability), equipment, how used they are to working together, circumstances, your and their aims etc.

To take an extreme example, assume you're skilled OOC with LRP fighting, you have the double body-dev CS, Armour Master OS, you're wearing a suit of heavy armour, and wielding an artefact sword with a shield. You know your mates are due to show up in a few minutes.
You're fighting 3 guys on your own, in an area under the ritual of peace. They have a normal 1-handed weapon each, no shield, no armour, and 1 LHV.
They'd like to take you down, but they don't really want to get killed doing it. They've not really worked together before, so are quite likely to get in each other's way rather than fight effectively as a team.

They have to wound you twice on a single location before that location stops working, and they've got to get through 4 points of armour on the location first (i.e. they need to hit you 6 times on a location to have any effect at all on your ability to fight). They can't breach the Ritual of Peace so, at worst, you're going to end up unconscious, then get rescued by your mates.
You, on the other hand, only have to hit one of their locations once to disable it - and if you hit it twice then they're bleeding to death. So they're probably not very keen to press the attack - they'd each be much happier if one of the others would risk getting wounded in the attack so that they can take advantage of any opening that might leave in your defences.

In those circumstances you can almost certainly take them out in a few seconds while suffering no more than a couple of hits of armour damage.
Sure, I've stacked the odds heavily in your favour with that example, but not nearly as much as I could have.

Well done, you caught my deliberate error.

*cough*

What? It was worth a try... :-)

I have been following this thread for a few days now and i would like add my 2 pence if thats cool i have been larping since i was 15 when a friend from my fencing team introduced me to it i am a foil and epee user and my friend is a sabre user in my experience of a lot of different systems, LT being my favourite, your likely to get hit in the head, and i have been many times this has never made me want use a helm purely on the basis that i have never found one i liked however this year whilst re-rolling a new char i found a helm i actually liked and spent some time deliberating i decided not to bother and go with a mask and a hat as i prefer full vision and find that hits to the helmet are far more disorientating than straight hits to the head, i recall several years back a popular character dressed as a full sized cow possibly a minotaur had a large 2 handed hammer i had fought him several times and his hit were good and i enjoyed the combat however at 1 great battle he was monstering and not using his hammer but a staff and i took a hit to the head which really hurt it was a straight down hit to the top of the skull and mid combat he stopped after seeing the disgruntled look on my face and apologised as he wasnt used to the weapon and then left to use a weapon he felt safe to use. I find this is the attitude of most players that if they arent safe with a weapon or have hurt someone they will apologise and/or pull out of combat, this is why LT is still after 10 years one of my favourite systems

hope this helps

I really don't think that one-on-one fights are an issue, unless one of the combatants is purposefully aiming for the head.

Consider larger skirmish encounters in the dark, where 10-20 monsters are attacking the area around a faction gate. The majority of head hits I see in those circumstances are where someone (player or monster) becomes aware of someone behind them and turns and swings. This is especially relevant if one person is 6'6" and the other a bit over 5' say.

The other one is full battle situations, where there's shield wall vs. shield wall. Typically the only open targets are heads and weapon arms. There are LOTS of head hits in those situations and anyone taking part in a shield wall confrontation should be fully aware that they WILL get hit in the head.


Going off-topic perhaps, but a long-time issue I have with the hobby is that anyone can turn up and swing a sword at you, without having had even basic safety training. You're trusting your safety and well being to your opponents not doing something stupid.

Pretty much ANY semi-contact martial arts or team sport has a minimum of training before participants are allowed to take part properly.

I'm not suggesting that the LT enforce minimum safety training on all players, as the admin overhead would be huge, but it's something that's concerned me over the years, after myself and friends being injured by hits that I feel should never have happened.

I'm certain I recall such a rule, WAY back. May have even been the Earthworks stuff before the Lorien Trust officially started? I'm pretty sure there was also a, "Body dev doesn't count for the head, as you can't build up effective muscle on your head to help absorb damage"

Whichever, it's quite some time ago now!