Oof, that's one of those famously messy ones, isn't it?

It's my understanding (NOT A RULES PERSON) that you do know if you're being discerned (a la Discern Unliving), because otherwise it makes things like the OS Shield Dismiss Level fairly pointless. I've seen it played that way in character.

However, the "Healer discern" (strictly speaking, a detect: "Detect Wounds, Pattern Effects, Poisons, and Diseases") may work differently. I've seen it played both ways.

[canofworms?] Perhaps all Discerns should actually be "Cantrips" costing no power but requiring Casting [/canofworms?]

Why?

Because it doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.

A Control is a Pattern Effect, for example, but it doesn't get picked up by a Healer's scan.

Edit to give a detailed answer:

Here are the canonical Pattern Effects. The ones that are actually picked up by a Healer discern are in bold. The ones that are instantaneous or otherwise irrelevant for detection are in italics.



Everything that isn't bold or italic should be detectable by a "Detect Pattern Effects", but is consistently ruled to not be detectable by a Healer's scan.

If it was actually Detect Pattern Effects, I should know if someone I discerned was under a Protection from Paralysis, a Control Elemental, and a Chant of Sanctuary, for example.

Edit 2: Note that discerning for "Diseases" is therefore redundant. Also, many of these things have IC ramifications. If I could tell if someone was under a Control, or whether an Incantor was actually doing a sanctuary or just faking it, or who was Embodying Unliving, just with a Healer scan, which the current vocals imply but the actual in-play rulings forbid, it makes a huge difference.

Therefore I'm saying we should change the Healer discern vocal so it doesn't actually break the rules.

Regarding that list of spells, there is obviously some errors in transposing spells from place to place. I cannot imagine why High Countermagic would be a pattern effect. A quick check at page 22 has anomalies. Standard/Light Incantation High Countermagic is not a pattern effect. Dark Incantation High Countermagic allegedly is. I didn't look further for other lists.

I'd accept that your interpretation of 'Discern Damage Effect' is literally correct, but this seems to be a quibble over wording. The last few years have thrown up a number of wording issues (see previous paragraph!), but I've never heard anyone claim the Healer discern would identify spell effects. The interpretation of the rules in play is quite clear. If not, I expect an errata correction will be made.

Making Discern Ancestral (etc) an IC vocal removes the debate of whether it is known or unknown. That seems to be the only benefit. There would be downsides - I think you can stil discern thigns while paralysed for example.

As I wrote, I've not heard anyone claim that the healer/physician discern should identify durational spells, etc.

You're right that almost no-one responds as per the written rules, because to do so is usually less helpful/simple than as it is played (this is likely to be a hangover from rules 2 playing procedure, but having -1 hits left on an arm is just odd). I think that it would be extremely difficult to force the rules as written on the game.

I don't imagine that players' understanding of how to respond will change due to wording is tidied up. Players get it wrong. All manner of things are gained as replies - I've been told race, possessions, dismiss levels, beguiles, paladinhood.... I just filter out what I don't think I find out.

We agree that the wording is not perfect. If the office think an errata is needed, one will appear. Currently I think the as-played version is widely enough known, albeit not as per the written rules.Might any change then affect future flexibility?

You're not kidding. I once had a player declare themselves dead when I checked them. A whispered conversation later, I explained to them that (a) that was not what they meant to say, and (b) they were telling people things they definitely shouldn't.



Definitely a fair point. Honestly, I'd settle for changing the vocal to be vaguer and keeping the rules intact, maybe with a clarification for those who read the nitty-gritty of the rules to make it clearer.

This leads into another area of discussion, re: Chant of Wasting and Sancutary.

As they are pattern effects, you should be able to pick up the difference with a Healer/Physician discern, both OC mechanically and IC common healer sense (I.e, they are getting worse/ they aren't getting worse respectively). Yes or No?

As I see it arguments are:

Yes - you are detecting pattern effects and thus an effect is currently on their pattern while the chanter is chanting

No - you cannot pick up these effects as they aren't Fatal, Paralysis, Petrification, Decay, Disease (I.e effects that you can cure)


From a practical sense, I've had both happen while playing a healer (obviously sanctuary is a common one) and the whole shouting about 'are you sure he/she is actually being sanctuaried?' thing always struck me as a common sense oversight. Either you know, or you don't. The IC fluff training over discerning patterns and wounds done with the guild (i,e the IC mechanics of looking at a persons pattern) suggests you should be able to spot the strange way a pattern is acting under sanctuary and wasting, and while you don't actually 'know' what spell vocals are when they are being cast, experience will tell you what certain people chanting over bodies may actually mean without it falling into the meta-game trap.

As a side note, anyone else roll their eyes any time they approach another faction's gate and get a heal discern on them to 'see if you are Unliving?'. Try harder guys, it isn't that easy!

Isolated points:

1. I don't see why you should be able to tell if someone is under Sanctuary prior to the grace period expiring - the spell has no effect until that point. Once the Sanctuary is keeping them alive, the answer may be different.

2. Wasting: won't detecting if someone is under a wasting usually comes down to whether someone chanting over them? It's ben ruled that any innately cast chant must still have an IC vocal component. Pretending to cast the spell could have very restricted use.

3. I think this boils down to "does the Physician/healer Discern/Detect Pattern Effects allow you to detect active durational spells?". Current play suggests 'No' is the field interpretation.

3a. Is there a case for making active spells available under Advanced Pattern Scan?

Isn't this all just spirit of the rules? its obvious what it actually means, if you want more info there is advanced patternscan.